Saturday, September 29, 2007

Video Vision

For those who think truth is relative, and that method is more important than message, and that postmodern is "cool", well, here is a needed adjustment to your glasses...

Thanks to our friends the Pyromaniacs



“Living For Today With An Eye For Tomorrow”©

5 comments:

Ted M. Gossard said...

Even So, my good brother, I have appreciated your comments, and see you as a man of God.

However this critique from Pyromaniac I find not only lacking love but truth as well. Of course truth and love cannot be separated, so this is neither truth or love.

Postmodernism is at heart idolatrous, as is modernism. Modernism has good in it as well, though postmodernism is a needed, devastating critique of its weaknesses, such as its confidence in humankind through knowledge as the answer to the world's problems. But postmodernism then turns around and denies truth's existence, a fallacy in more ways than one, and fails miserably. But just the same, postmodernism's delight in narrative is commendable and certainly scripture is narrative to the core, and arguably at least related to narrative, such as Romans- descriptive of the story of God.

I think people in emergent circles know this. And to criticize them and lump them in a single category, and this entire program- I find utterly unchristian.

If people don't think that Christians in these circles are not trying to utterly follow Christ in all of their life, then they simply aren't acquainted with them. Of course there are people in our fellowships which we would not want outsiders to take as representing who we are.

I think this is a severe misunderstanding of this whole position. For example I'm probably a postfoundationalist myself, but that doesn't mean I don't believe in truth, or in the truth of scipture as the word of God, the Trinity, Jesus as God-human, the creeds, even the Reformation and its continued application for today, etc. People need to read and understand just what others mean.

Of course there can be critiques of emergents, but they will only be good if done from a position of hearing and understanding what they're really saying, teaching and believing.

Just had to reply on this. It is saddening, but all too common

I'm sorry to come across so strong, but I see these as mere caricatures, not to be taken seriously.

Even So... said...

Well, I actually appreciate those comments very much...I am NOT just saying that so as to come and now knock you or your statements down, they are worth looking at, so again, thank you, I mean it...

Since you have read my comments elsewhere, and if you check this blog, and if you ask around, you will find me a willing ear, and I am dead to self (well, I am becoming more so, Philippians 3:12), and so I am willing to be wounded (Proverbs 27:6)...

From our standpoint over here in this little corner of the blogosphere, we agree that the "excluded middle" - putting everyone on one side or the other of a certain fence that we draw ourselves - is a huge fallacy, but also, from over here, we aren't pointing fingers at specific individuals, but to the concepts themselves...

If something cannot stand scrutiny, it cannot stand (1 Thessalonians 5:21). That goes for all of us and all of our ideas, no matter how cherished. I believe we are 100% agreement about that. It seems that neither “side” like the other to be putting their shoes on for them…

Now your definition of “post-foundational” intrigues me, not that I haven’t heart about it, of course, and I really don’t want to get into it all here, but I am sure you will agree we need, no we MUST HAVE certain foundational truths in place. Indeed, if the foundations are destroyed, what can the righteous do? (Psalm 11:3). Yes, God in His providence is shaking everything in order that those things that can be shaken off will be, and those that are solid remain, but we have been given a foundation that cannot be shaken loose from our God (Hebrews 12:26-28).

The tone of these posters, videos, et al, may be lacking in some grace, but of course it depends on many other factors as well, like how they are used, etc. As you have said they aren’t to be taken too seriously, they cannot on their own stand as a fully orbed critique. Caricatures can be fun, and I actually think these posters and this video are intended as that, at least from MY intent...BTW you seem very informed and intelligent, so think about that statement I just made (my intent is just as important as authorial intent) and how it applies as a critique, both to you and me, and all...we are all making mistakes, for sure...the real test is are we counting on Jesus to keep us, and do we really know who He is?

God bless you for your conviction and compassion. Consider my words as I consider yours (2 Timothy 2:7)…

In His Grace, and For His Glory

J.D.

Ted M. Gossard said...

J.D., Thanks so much for your kind and gracious response. I appreciate all you say, and I think I track with you on it all. I think your intent is good, but I just don't think these are well taken by those they're aimed at.

As to post-foundationalism, I certainly agree that foundations as from scripture are important, a matter of life and death. What I think I understand on post-foundationalism and why I probably stand with it, is that it is a critique on modernism, not on scripture or on truth itself. It's a critique on humanism's confidence that truth can be found by human reason inclusive of science especially. This is my understanding of it in a nutshell, a limited one from my limited perspective, due to reading much less than I would like or have time to read. Evangelical post-foundationalists don't at all deny truth. They believe truth is mediated through scripture, and through Jesus Christ (as well as, I'd say, creation itself in a general sense of acknowledging a Creator and something of his divine nature from it). Here's a book I've looked at and would like to read. It would be challenging intellectually and also because we may not have sufficient philosophical background study to get the most out of it, but that's where digging could take place. Unfortunately I may never get to it, but this exchange drives me closer to thinking otherwise.

At any rate I much appreciate our exchange and the kind, gracious spirit with which you hold to the truth as it is in Jesus. Blessings on you and yours and on your work in the Lord.

Ted

Ted M. Gossard said...

By the way, I know you point out that you're aiming at what people teach, not to attack other Christians, and I appreciate that.

I wish this was more evident in the spirit and tone of what often occurs in the blog world. Though we must not mince words when it comes to truth, holding to it with grace and love in Jesus.

Even So... said...

Thanks you as well...

Though we must not mince words when it comes to truth, holding to it with grace and love in Jesus.

Indeed, I wrote a recent post on it, still on the front page, titled "Reasoning and Seasoning"...

May God open all of our eyes a little more...