…to make propitiation for the sins of the people.
(Hebrews 2:17 – ESV)
(Hebrews 2:17 – ESV)
You have heard it said that if you were the only person on earth, Jesus would have come to die for your sins. That is true, but we need to see that in proper perspective. He would do it not just because He loved you so, and He does, but the fountainhead of that love flows because His holiness demanded it, the sin was an assault on the throne of God that must be dealt with, and attack on the infinite worth of God, and it required a payment that you could not meet.
He would have done so, not because you were worth saving, but because even one sin is so horrible and such an affront to God’s glory that He must punish it with absolute justice, and since He is of infinite worth, that punishment would be unfathomable, and He would have to pay for it Himself. Think hard and clearly on that. That Jesus had to die shows the worthlessness of any payment we could try and make for sins, and the infinite worth of God.
That statement about Jesus dying just for you makes us feel good about ourselves, and our worth, but we need to realize that we are supposed to worship God, regardless of what He has done for us, He is God Almighty. He died just for His Father, and you as the beneficiary of that plan. This does not diminish His love for us in any way, it lifts up the holiness of God and shows it to be the spring from which God’s mercy and justice can be met together in Christ.
His love is grounded in His holiness not in our worthiness or faithfulness and His holiness is that from which His love springs, not vice versa. Hallelujah, I pray you see it, and if you don’t, consider well what I say, and ponder it until God grips you with this truth of His glory.
44 comments:
" This does not diminish His love for us in any way,"
It magnifies His love doesn't it. The other view is a shallow love. Or even worse, a human love.
These are hard things for many in the Church today, but they sure need to be heard.
Thanks JD for always bringing forth the truth with depth and richness.
It magnifies His love doesn't it. The other view is a shallow love. Or even worse, a human love.
Exactly right Don...thank you for your encouragement because you are also very right about the fact that this message, while completely true, is completely foreign and hostile to today's "me mindset"...
...and I'm talking about the church!
Amen J.D. Good post as always.
You bet Jazzy - I agree - great post - think I'll actually send it to a friend.
Enjoying the book JD - using it as a morning devotional before Bible reading to ready my soul.
I'm starting to "take hold" of this concept. Kinda hard after years of listening to God loved "me" so much that He......"
So all those OT sacrifices were of little value in the "propitiation" department?????
So all those OT sacrifices were of little value in the "propitiation" department?????
They just "stayed His hand" as it were...God knowing that He was going to actually be propitiated later according to the Plan..these sacrifices were only a picture of the true Sacrifice...without the shedding of blood there is no forgiveness of sins (Hebrews 9:22)...however, it is impossible for the blood of bulls and goats to take away sins (Hebrews 10:4)...
Therefore in order for God to actually be righteous in His dealings (Romans 3:25-26), Christ had to die, otherwise we could not have been made favorable to God...
All part of His Master Plan...
O the depths of the beauty of God!
Does anybody know where that teaching came from? "If you were the only person, He would have still died for you." Just curious.
Craver, it sounds like the "free will" mindset to me. Just a hunch.
"If you were the only person, He would have still died for you."
Man-centered sentimentality would be my take on it.
"Then He brought him outside and said, "Look now toward heaven, and count the stars if you are able to number them." And He said to him, "So shall your descendants be." Gen. 15:5
"Father Abraham had many sons,
Many sons had father Abraham".
Yes, a man centered concept leads to the pleading with people about how "don't you see His love for you, you are so special to Him" kind of thing, instead of "The God of the universe demands you repent, and be perfect", and yet you cannot...from which we can then more clearly see His awesome love and grace as He gives what He commands...
Yes, not only is it selfish to think in terms of "just me", but the larger point is that it was my sins that put Him there, and even if I was the only one who ever sinned, Jesus would have had to die for that payment if I were to be reconciled to the Father...
Chew on that for a while and it will become clearer to you...
That is worth repeating...
EVEN IF I WAS THE ONLY ONE WHO EVER SINNED, JESUS WOULD HAVE HAD TO DIE FOR THAT PAYMENT IF I WERE TO BE RECONCILED TO THE FATHER...
Let me take it even further...
Even if you were the only one who ever sinned, and you only sinned one time, Jesus would have had to die for that payment if I were to be reconciled to the Father...
That is how bad sin is, how holy God is, and how merciful God is toward you, toward all believers...
We simply must see it through this means if we are to more fully appreciate it, instead of looking at the mercy first...
Get the order right...
You're incredible, JD. Very well done!
It is all Him, Craver...in His grace we can begin to see the heights of His majesty and Holiness, this in turn helps us to see the depths of our depravity, which then helps us see just how rich His love and how great His mercy is toward us...
If people would just get a HOLD of this it would transform they way they worship forever...instead of just having strong feelings and thinking that these were the height of spirituality, they would enter a depth they had never even been able to dream of with God...and they would stop singing songs that start and end with "me", and they wouldn't care so much about finding their spiritual gift, and they wouldn't have to concentrate so hard on killing their old man, it would all be replaced with a new affection...
Anyone with me?
Sound off....!
Amen. I am learning. Father keep us all teachable and help us to get a HOLD of this Truth and continue to transform the way we worship you.
"it would all be replaced with a new affection"
Amen.
It's humbling, though you wouldn't think so.
It's motivating, though you wouldn't think so.
Thanks JD.
Sho nuff! (a.k.a. amen!)
He determines the penalty for sin and then He Himself pays for it...........what other God would do that??
I think at this point in my life, I "worship" Him more fully during the sermon than I do during song service.
Amen to the post and the comments.
"His love is grounded in His holiness not in our worthiness or faithfulness..." Excellent, JD
---"If people would just get a HOLD of this it would transform they way they worship forever...instead of just having strong feelings and thinking that these were the height of spirituality, they would enter a depth they had never even been able to dream of with God...and they would stop singing songs that start and end with "me", and they wouldn't care so much about finding their spiritual gift, and they wouldn't have to concentrate so hard on killing their old man, it would all be replaced with a new affection..."--
No life altering comments to add, just thought this needed repeating!
From a different point of view - just because He was who He said He was and came to do what He said He would do - if I were the only one ever to accept that gift, He was bound by His own unchangeable Word that He would have died "just for me" - for by 1 man sin entered the world therefore by 1 man....
Yes His holiness is the reason we can count on His faithfulness..it all fits together perfectly...and we do need to see it all...
How much I desire that all I know and care for would see and understand this truth and come to personal relationship with such a great and faithful God.
While I agree wholeheartedly on JD’s take on this, allow me to balance this discussion with an impassioned defense of Christ dying “for me.”
For quite some time after I got saved, I was very distressed by a lack of deep motivation to serve Christ; many times I didn’t even have a desire to attend church. I believed in all the fundamentals of Christianity, but there was a lack of heartfelt love for Jesus Christ. After many years of despondency concerning my lack of passion for the Lord, I felt the answer was in regular church attendance & worship regardless of the level of my desire. As I made every effort to worship Him humbly, the Spirit showed me two things: the full depth of my sin, & the fact that Christ died to cleanse me personally of my resultant repugnancy before God. This was a turning point for me & why I now fervently preach the offensiveness of sin & the individualistic nature of our relationship with Christ.
For years I understood His death only in the context of John 3:16- “For God so loved the world;” while this statement speaks of His accomplishment on it’s grand scale, some of us need to comprehend His work on a personalized level too.
As to where it came from, I would especially point to Galatians 2:20:
“I have been crucified with Christ; it is no longer I who live, but Christ lives in me; and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by faith in the Son of God, who loved me and gave Himself for me.”
Yes, it is certainly true we need to see all sides of this, but more often than not it is the other side which gets left out altogether, or which does not take the lead...the order of things is important, but it all needs to be said for a more full understanding, appreciation, and worship...the full meal is needed for the full growth...
My problem is that when you lead with the "me", many feel that if they do not do that then the people will not come or be interested, and many times we wind up "selling" them on an out of order Jesus who doesn't really exist...
Again, we need it all, and we need it in the proper perspective...
Paul starts Galatians with Christ delivering "us" from "our" sins (Galatians 1:4), and then gets to the individual part...
I agree there’s a conspicuous number of narcissistic ministers & laypersons in churches today. But I also believe that by preceding the statement “Christ died (just?) for you” with the pride-stabbing message of a holy God cannot abide in the presence of your sin (as you are preaching, JD), all such arrogant persons would either be convicted to repentance, or would deafen themselves to the subsequent message of the Lord’s love for & ministry to the individual elect of God.
Agreed, that is why the order is important, of course...we must preach love founded on holiness, law leading to grace, etc., etc....
There's no problem dwelling on the individual nature of Christ's love & ministry to us if we likewise dwell on the individual nature of our transgressions against God.
Yes indeed...
...it also helps to see the corporate nature first, i.e. Adam, and how that all pans out so that we can understand the corporate nature of Christ (the second Adam - 1 Corinthians 15) having all of us in Him...
Well, as I testified above, that's the order I came to perceive Christ's work. The only question which remains- "Why did it take so long (12 years) for me to come to understand it on a personal level?
I think the major answer is a void of substantial repentance in my life; & that brings us back around to the necessity of preaching law & God’s indignation upon our every trespass.
Steve, it is the difference between judicial and parental forgiveness...we will speak of this in tomorrow's sermon, stay tuned next week for it to be on the blog, a Saturday Sermon....
This was first posted 7-13-07, but since it is Good Friday (3-21-08) I thought it would be good to meditate on again...
Even So,
I will have to think on that one. Makes good theological sense. Though Scripture doesn't exactly say that.
God is love, and God's wrath is an expression of that love as is everything else from God, though we can most certainly say all flows from God's holiness, as well.
God is inherently relational, a Being and Person in eternal communion with himself as Father, Son and Spirit. And this great redemption in Jesus is meant to lift humans into that very communion, indeed even by union with God as we read in John's gospel. Though only insofar as redeemed humans can be in union with God, though this is of great, eternal, unspeakeable worth.
The gospel must be seen in the light of creation, fall, redemption and new creation. Therefore I do believe God has taken it upon himself, and this as part of his eternal plan, to redeem his creation, and does so in love, as well as in his holiness.
God's glory is seen in the face of Jesus, a very human face (while God, of course), and it is seen at the Cross.
This is all not at all to diminish God's holiness one iota. We need to better see that, just as Isaiah did, and therefore in our falleness and sin, see our great need for the Savior.
Amen, and I will be thinking on that.
Ted, thanks for the reply...this is part of serveral posts we had done earlier...for more on this click the "atonement" label, and below the "Yes He Can" posts are the sermon and individual posts that this idea came from....much more there about love and holiness and it shluld be very beneficial, at least to see the gleanings from particular scriptures (Romans 3:25-26) where this comes from...God bless you as you ponder His character...
Okay. On rereading this right now, I think you word it quite well.
The Old Testament does major quite alot on helping us see God's wrath and holiness, which is one major mistake in skipping over the history of Israel in the Old Testament when thinking through salvation, and maybe that's a mistake I've made to some extent, though I'm certainly a reader of all of Scripture, and student.
Your words here make better sense so that, yes, possibly that's true.
God's love and holiness I think are often considered the two major aspects of his character, and I remember R.A. Torrey, who was close to D.L. Moody, cast holiness as God's main characteristic.
I see the Trinity as neglected to some extent by theologians, though certainly not entirely, particularly in the east in orthodox Christianity. But it has been opened up from Scipture in a quite profound way in the 20th century from Barth and Moltmann, etc. And that to understand God, unlike other religions, we must see God as Trinity and a Being in relationship with himself or in himself, in eternal communion in that union of Father, Son and Spirit.
So from that, and also just from a plain reading of Scripture, as in John 3:16 and in other places, it seems that it is God's love above all, which moves him, a love which provides this great salvation in Jesus the Son, and through which God's holiness and just wrath and anger is satisfied.
Your words here are so very well written, J.D. You have a good gift for writing and speaking and thinking. As I have time I'll get to the postings on this that you mention.
And I'm going to add you to my numerous blog links on the side of my blog. I know everyone approaches that differently.
Also, even if we may not agree on everything, I'm sure I can learn from you, and even this exercise will be good for me. And we're all in this together, as Christians.
And you know, I guess I'm like a Barnabas, and we need the whole mix. I like to encourage, but I mean it from the heart. I don't say what I don't mean.
Blessings on you and yours.
Ted
"His love is grounded in His holiness not in our worthiness or faithfulness and His holiness is that from which His love springs, not vice versa."
I also see God's holiness as his Otherness, that he is apart from us, which when we consider our sin, he then points out that that is against the backdrop of his perfection and purity in that holiness.
I see grace underlying all of God's activity in the world and particularly in God's redemptive work in Christ. It's a grace that comes from his Being of love and holiness. I do prefer to see his love as paramount, and that his wrath against sin is an expression of that love. Of course you can't pit one attribute of God against another. In all God does, all of who he is is perfectly present, though some things are more like expressions of who he is, like his mercy, which is not present when he judges people according to their works (Revelation) and all who are not written in the Book of life are cast into the lake of fire.
Of course in the end we must always take into full acount God's just wrath and holiness, along with his love.
Just thinking....
Good stuff Ted, and thanks for the link...indeed, defining our terms and the ideas we have undergirding them is important, much theological debate and speculation and hostility could be avoided if we just took the time to do this in a "safe" environment before we startred launching counter assaults, when in the openeing parts we are only adressing and assessing, not arguing...
Your sincerity shows and is appreciated...
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