And when Jesus had cried with a loud voice, he said, Father, into thy hands I commend my spirit: and having said thus, he gave up the ghost.(Luke 23:46)
These words of Jesus were used to fulfill the prophecy of Psalm 31:5. Jesus had laid down His life voluntarily, when He wanted to and how He wanted to (John 10:18), which we know was in accordance with the Father’s will. He suffered the wrath of God for us on the cross.
There is a sinister teaching out there that says that Jesus, before His resurrection, while He was in the tomb, was actually suffering at the hands of demonic forces in hell, paying the price for our sins there, not having finished the matter on the cross. That is blasphemy. Jesus didn’t suffer additional torment in hell at the hands of demons (Psalm 16:10 / Acts 2:27). He had control over His own spirit, and after the Father had poured out His wrath upon our Lord, Jesus suffered no additional punishment. The Father crushed His soul, not Satan (Isaiah 53:10-11). The cry of John 19:30, it is finished, is a victory cry. Christ meant what He had said; the price for redemption was paid in full at Calvary.
This brings up another point. Have you ever seen pictures, cartoons, comics or other depictions of people in hell with Satan ruling, and demons tormenting them? This isn’t what the Bible depicts hell as being like. Demons will not be tormenting people in hell; it is God who will be punishing the wicked. The devil and his angels are going to be tormented themselves, not allowed to assist in tormenting others (Matthew 25:41 / 2 Peter 2:4). Remember the demons that wondered and asked Jesus, “art thou come hither to torment us before the time” (Matthew 8:29)? It is Jesus who will torment the demons, not the other way around!
Jesus won the victory on the cross; He paid our sins in full right there. Listen to what the bible tells us: Colossians 2:15 (NLT) – In this way, God disarmed the evil rulers and authorities. He shamed them publicly by his victory over them on the cross of Christ. Jesus didn’t have to make a deal with the devil; those demonic forces weren’t going to have a beat down session in hell with Christ as the whipping boy. They didn’t know what was coming; if they did they wouldn’t have wanted Christ on that cross (1 Corinthians 2:8). This is why Paul preaches Christ, and Him crucified, not Christ, and Him suffering in hell (1 Corinthians 1:23).
14 comments:
Step back, J.D.,
I have to shout it --
AMEN!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
You are so right! Listening to those people who teach this, along with Christ being "born again" there will turn the belly faster than eating a spoon full of Crisco.
Back at 'ya...
AMEN!!!!!!!
Well, I must say, I had never heard of that version of Christ before. But I have seen those pics you were talking about. Just never put the two together. It is good to know of those type things in order to stay clear of them. Praise God
JD, question on a totally seperate topic. Thursday, did you say 7:00? And was there a particular reason for that time? I only ask because Melissa wondered if it wasn't to difficult if we could move it up maybe an hour? However! if it causes too many challenges don't worry about it, everything will fine. We are looking forward to the fellowship.
Margie doesn't get home from work until 5:30, 6:30 would be fine, remind me Wednesday...
JD, I have to admit that I saw the title to your post and immediately thought of definite atonement. IOW, Christ did not pay for the sins of those who are in hell. Silly me.
Not silly at all, Jonathan, especially considering the questions I brought with the "Frozen Chosen?" post of Saturday...
If Jesus died for all the sins of all the people ever, doesn’t this include unbelief?
Why, then, are all people not going to heaven?
Better worded "aren't all people" instead of "all people not"...I'll make the change on the other post for clarity...
even so-
If Jesus died for all the sins of all the people ever, doesn’t this include unbelief?
Why, then, are all people not going to heaven
This question belies the presuppositional framework of perceiving sin and atonement through a strictly legal sense- hence, Jesus dying for Person A's sins means that God doesn't have to punish Person A since Person A's sins have already been punished in Christ.
However, the legal conception through which your question is mediated completely misses the underlying nature and problem of sin. The problem of sin is not so much that it falls under the ineviatble wrath of a just God, but rather that the one who is sinful exists in a relationship outside of union with God.
The power of the cross isn't as much in its ability to divert God's wrath to another party (namely, Jesus) but rather that through the cross the power of sin is broken and reconciliation is made possible, hence humans can again exist in union with God.
A dynamic that has always existed between God and humanity is that of wills- God wills to dwell in relationship with humanity, but humans choose to not do likewise. This severing of oneself from union with God is where sin begins, and is then manifested in our actions. (That is why sin is called a privation of good.) The deep seated problem of sin in our hearts cannot be resolved by a diversion of wrath (as can be seen by the need for Christ) but rather by a transformation within.
Christ, by taking the sins of the world upon himself, makes reconciliation with God possible for everyone. That is why Paul says that in Adam all die, but in Christ all are made alive.
Well, DM, at least you have thought about it a lot, and believe me, I do understand your position. That being said, I hold to the "orthodox protestant" position regarding the atonement, that is, penal substitutionary, etc.
The transformation within you speak of is what I believe to be the Holy Spirit circumcising our hearts, the born again experience. Those whom have had their sins paid for by Christ are also regenerated so that they believe and have eternal life, the remission of sins, the adoption as sons, and so forth...
I have no problem with you stating your views, and there are many readers here (praise God that there are any) that have not previously seen the interactions here with you, me, exist~dissolve, and the other cast of characters involved in our other discussions.
Perhaps we will engage in another round of vigorous debate, say, with the theories of atonement on the agenda...it might be very beneficial for people to see what is out there and to examine what happens here so as to inspire a further passion for discovering themselves, and hopefully to lay out the basics well enough to stand on their own for those needing or wanting only a snapshot...
Hi DM,
Even though you far outclass me (and I mean that), I wanted to post a reply as to why I disagree with what you gave here. Unfortunately, due to my loosing battle with Blogger, I have to break it up into two parts.
I'd like to extend an invintation to you to come reply if you wish. I do request that you not use big long 50 cent words, as I am a touch on the stupid side.
Anyway, part one is up now. I did not intend for there to be a part 1, but rather one post that dealt with your statement here.
Anyway....
here is where you can find my reply:
http://gojiras-stomping-ground.blogspot.com/
This article was first posted 1/23/07, and all comments before this one were from that "go round"...since we are now in "Passion Week" this year (today's posting being 3-18-08), I thought it good to revist this, as people are still being fed this false teaching...
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